So Touby’s group became very upset, because Tong Va was one of their military leaders. The Hmong at Tham Hit who supported Thao Tou and built a barrack on top of a hill, took all their wives and children there at night, and took them into the barrack to stay there. And at dawn, they would come down to their village, to their houses, to cook, so the French booby-trapped grenades in some of their houses. So at the first crow of the rooster, they came down to cook breakfast, the grenades were put under the grass that covered the roof. When the fire warmed the grass, they exploded. Many of them were killed: women, men, children. Then we went after them and had a three-day battle. They were routed, so they scattered in defeat. There were a few groups of us. Some came from one direction, another group from a different direction.

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GL: What year was that?

It was before the Viet Minh came to Xieng Khouang Town in 1953. [Reference to 7,000 Vietnamese must have been in 1953: 4,000 who came and were killed in Nong Het was earlier]

GL: When was it that the Hmong-against-Hmong fighting occurred?

I can’t remember too well. A year or two before the Viet Minh came into Laos [c. 1950-51]. So we scattered them, and they took all their wives and children into Vietnam. They first went to Hong Thu before they went to Muong Sene. They stayed at Muong Sene, but many of their children became sick and died, and many wives were sick. Many husbands had also been killed in battle. So they were sent back to Laos. They were sent back to their old village at Tsua Tho. They went through a lot of hardship: no food, no money. So Touby, because they were related through one of his wives, went to bring them back. So Touby went to bring them over and marry off the widows to whoever could take them so they would have someone to support them. It took two years to marry off all the wives.

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GL: How many families could be involved?

Oh, it must have been 100 or 200. So you can see I have seen all the good and the bad. All the wives were married off for free. They were very poor. Their husbands all died. There was no one to find food for them. They would rather have a husband in Laos than have to live in Vietnam [as a widow]. So they all got married. That’s how they escaped all the hardship. And that’s the beginning. After that, then we had the Vietnamese coming to make war with the French in 1953, and then the last civil war in 1961, and then Kong Le and Vang Pao’s war. When it came to the Kong Le war -

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Before we talk about the Kong Le war in 1960, could you tell us about your personal life in the period after Dien Bien Phu when many Hmong in Vietnam on the French side, like Yang Dao’s father, escaped to Laos? What did you do at that time in 1954?

I stopped being in the military at the time when General Khamhu came to take over as Military Region II commander. Khamhu had a Vietnamese father and a Lao mother, so we saw him as the Vietnamese general. But Khamhu had leanings toward the Pathet Lao, and one of Touby’s sons called Va, also showed sympathies for the Pathet Lao. But we refused to show any support.

GL: What was Vang Pao by this time?

He finished his officer training school and was already a commanding officer in Battalion Number 10. He belonged to Battalion Number 10, but there were many other Lao officers, and they tried to kill Vang Pao. Vang Pao was the commanding officer to some of these Lao officers, and they didn’t like him for that, so they rebelled against him at the Plain of Jars. They wanted to kill him, and he fled to Lat Houang. Vang Pao and three or four other Hmong who were in the Lao Army with him, escaped to Lat Houang from the Plain of Jars. He went into hiding in the village of Dong Dane on the way to Xieng Khouang town. There were many Hmong living there at that time, including many of his wife’s relatives. So the Hmong leaders mobilized many Hmong with guns to go back to the Plain of Jars. There were no more French by that time.

The Hmong scared off the Lao military officers there, and arrested General Sinh and a few other high commanding officers who were all sent back to southern Laos. There were five or six of them, and the Hmong were treating them a little bit harshly, like kicking them, beating them up, even though they were very high-ranking. But this was not done by Vang Pao. They were all tied up and could not do anything to defend themselves, because their subordinates all ran away. They were all put back in one plane to go to southern Laos to General Phoumi (Nosavane) in Savannakhet. By that time, Touby was a deputy (in the Lao National Assembly) in Vientiane, and I became a police officer in Xieng Khouang Town. I owed this change to Chao Saykham [2]. At that time, all the Hmong who used to serve as soldiers under the French were transferred into the Royal Lao Army [3]. About a year or so after we returned from Dien Bien Phu (1955?), I was told to go to replace Major Anamay in Sam Neua. But Chao Saykham said to me, “Lee Lue, you have been one of my military leaders for more than ten years. But you only know how to read and write Lao. All those people in the army now know how to read and write French as well as Lao. You would not be able to write a telegraphic message or a letter in French. They would not like you. The best thing would be for me to transfer you to the provincial police.” So he sent me there. So the other Hmong police officers like Ly Ong or Tou Yia, and Hang Sao, they didn’t like me. I came from the military with my rank straight into the provincial police. I did not just come into it from school. I was given a pistol. They were jealous of me.

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[2] He was the Governor of Xieng Khouang province and a friend of Touby and the Hmong people until 1975 when he escaped to France with his family as refugees.

[3] The Royal Lao Army was formed under the Franco-Lao General Convention of 19 July 1949, and “by the end of 1952 comprised seventeen companies, in addition to a battalion entirely commanded by Laotian officers.” (Laos: a country study. Ed. by A. M. Savada. Washington DC: Library of Congress, 1995. p. 31)

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GL: Didn’t they also get pistols?

No.

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GL: How long were you in the police force?

Oh, many years. More than ten years, because even when I was with Vang Pao [after 1961], I was still paid through the police, and I received 16,800 kip a month for that.

GL: What did you do as a police officer?

Officially, I was in the police from 1956 to 1961, until the Kong Le War. But the Lao police officers they did not operate like Western police officers. You were supposed to help the people, and not cause trouble for people, like in a White society. You are supposed to stop people from doing bad things to other people, and to also deal with officials who are bad to people. You have to go and see these bad people and deal with them.

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GL: Did you have to do any training?

Yes, we had to do training, but only in Xieng Khouang Town. They came and gave us training there: running, jumping over hurdles, carrying things, all sorts of physical training. Many people could not do the training, but I managed, because I had the experience in the military. I had jumped from aeroplanes and did many other things. All you needed was not to be afraid.

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GL: I remember you going away for long periods when you were a police officer. What did you do?

Oh, we went to gather intelligence on the Vietnamese.

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GL: But you were police officers.

The police had to do it, too. They were involved in that, too. We had to report on enemy activities. That’s why I went away so often. When the Kong Le War came, then the Vang Pao War, we became involved in the fighting.

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GL: As police officers?

Yes. We had to join in the battles.

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GL: So did you go to stop Kong Le at the Steel Bridge (Choj Hlau) that crosses the Nam Ngum River [before the road gets to the Plain of Jars]?

[In a famous episode there, Kong Le’s tanks and trucks came up at that bridge. Vang Pao was too busy romancing one of his future wives at Hmong New Year and was not there. He told his officers to take over, but they were overwhelmed. They had new artillery (from the CIA) that they didn’t know how to use, so they just abandoned post]

Yes, I did. But when we got there, we didn’t know how to fight with the new big gun. And I said, “maybe you have to out this powder in.” So we tried a few tricks, and we fired a few rounds. But by that time, it was too late. Kong Le already crossed the steel bridge. So we blew up two other bridges that crossed two little rivers further down the road, and then came back to try to find the big gun, as I said before. It was much later that we learned to fire this 106 [mm].

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GL: Who brought this big gun to you, the French or the Americans?

The Americans. They had become a little involved by that stage. [CIA helped Phoumi Nosavan chase out Kong Le from Vientiane]

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GL: When did the Americans come?

The year Kong Le seized power [1960?]. So we came back to Xieng Khouang, after our defeat by Kong Le. That’s why I sent you and your mother and the family to hide in the jungle in Khang Hong and I went to Naxang with the rest of the police force.

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GL: You went there to hide or to go on to some other place?

We were planning to go to Savannakhet. When we got there [Naxan] the Americans came in two helicopters.

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GL: Can you tell us in greater detail about this particular time of the war? So on the first of January, 1961, when Kong Le marched into Xieng Khoaung Town and my mother and our family went to hide north of the town and you and your police officers and Vang Pao and his soldiers all went south to Naxan, what really happened there? Did you march the whole night and then you reached Naxan?

All the people in the provincial administration [civilian government], all the people in the provincial public service: the police, the military [on the right wing side], the provincial governor [Chao Saykham], Touby and their families. All the wives, Touby's wives - were sent to Nasu, at the bottom of Pha Dong. A radio was given to Touby’s family. Touby was in Vientiane at that time. Only his wives and children were in Xieng Khouang Town. The day before Kong Le arrived, the Americans dropped a lot of parachutes, a lot of weapons for us in Xieng Khouang. We collected them, and we filled two rooms with them. But we just abandoned them when we went south.

GL: Why didn’t you give them away to your soldiers?

But everyone had their own guns already, so everybody would have had two. Guns were plentiful at this time. The idea was for us to use them to stop Kong, Le, but we couldn’t, so we just abandoned them.

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GL: Why couldn’t you stop Kong Le? He didn’t have many soldiers.

We didn’t have the big guns, and Kong Le used a lot of the big guns. [GYL: I could remember them firing “Boom! Boom!” everywhere. They just fire them ahead to scare people]. Kong Le had 105 artillery, so we couldn’t resist.

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GL: You were only very few. Was that right?

Oh, no. We had quite a number, about 5- or 600 Hmong soldiers.

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GL: What about the Lao?

About four or five companies, all under Vang Pao, some under Phoumi. The Hmong said, “We should go and stop Kong Le at Dong Dane [c. 30 miles from XK Town on the way to the Plain of Jars], but the Lao didn’t want to. They refused. They said, “We would never win. We just have to run.” So Vang Pao agreed. So we escaped, starting from Si Som [a small village in the Dong Dane area]. At the beginning, we each had two rifles, two carbines. [GYL says they knew Kong Le was coming, but VP did not prepare. In that time Phoumi must have sent them weapons]. When we got to Si Som, we hid the second gun in the jungle and only had one each on our shoulders. We walked for a whole night and a whole day. We went to [the region of] Tha Vieng [going south]. When we got there, the Americans came. Then the Americans came at Naxan. [That’s past Tha Vieng]

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GL: Why did the Americans come? Why did they stop you there?

They came in two helicopters. There were only six or seven people. And they said we should not run away; we should resist. Vang Pao told them no, we could not resist. The Americans said, “We will bring ammunition and weapons to you right away.” So they brought 106s, four or five of them, at Naxan. They levelled [by hand] the retaining walls of the rice terraces to make an air strip. So we decided to stay put at Naxan. When we got the airstrip constructed, two- winged airplanes, one big one and one yellow one, landed. The yellow [small] one came first. After the small plane came, they asked if anybody could go in the small plane to drop leaflets to those [on our side] who were in other areas. But nobody wanted to go. So I said to Vang Pao, “If I go and I’m shot down, will you look after my wife and children?” Anyway, I asked him, “Where did they print the leaflets, and what was printed on them?” He said he didn’t know where they came from; they just came in big bundles. And the message was to resist Kong Le, not to give in to Kong Le.

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GL: Who was the pilot? Was him American?

No, it was only Lao pilot, and the plane was very old. The pilot had to push something on the side forward when they had to lift off, and then push it backward for it to come down. After I volunteered, they showed me how to fall off the plane should they crash, so that we wouldn’t get burned. When we got to Muong Phan, we met with a small black plane from Kong Le’s side. [Cargo planes from the USSR were readily available to Kong Le to bring supplies]. And I asked him what it was doing. Also dropping leaflets! The pilot told me (I was sitting in the back manning the machine gun) not to fire unless we were fired at, but I said, “Just keep dropping leaflets”, so that’s what we did. Nothing happened. But when we got nearer to Xieng Khouang Town, we saw many more planes. We dropped leaflets to Tha Ling [Monkey Cave], to Kiao Kacham [on the way to Luang Prabang], and to Phu Chia before we came back to land. We were very lucky, because we were told that they shot down two American planes in the Plain of Jars by that time.

The second time, I was asked to go and drop pay to Hmong soldiers in the Nong Het area, and we also had five bags of rice in a bigger plane, the kind of plane that crashed at Pha Dong. It was a bigger plane, and it was piloted by a black American person. They gave me 200,000 kip. They used two bars of steel attached to the plastic bag, and put that under a small parachute. When we got there, we made a large turn [circle] and saw lots of Kong Le’s soldiers on the ground. They were actually Vietnamese. They seemed to be on every mountain top. I radioed our men [on the ground] and said, “Where are you? What is your position?” They said, “Oh, we are only down on the flat area where there is a school.” Everywhere else there were enemy soldiers. “Oh, there are enemy soldiers everywhere! It looks like you will be attacked very soon.” So I dropped the pay attached to two small parachutes, and after I saw that they came to collect the parcel, I then dropped the bags of rice. I dropped three bags first. On our second pass to drop the last two bags, we were fired at. We were fired at! I didn’t know any English words! I only knew a few French words. So I told the pilot [in French] “anamite feu!” [Enemy fire! or Fire from the Vietnamese]. The pilot turned the plane so suddenly that I hit my head on the canopy of the plane! We went so fast that we suddenly came to Pak Kha. But the pilot turned back. Maybe he wanted to go and have another look. When we went back there, there was fighting on the ground. Dust was swirling everywhere. Then we saw our soldiers running in all directions, some in one column towards Pak Kha.

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GL: Who was their commander?

Major [later Colonel] Soua Yang [who just died in France. GYL says SY sent a cassette excoriating him “for living off the backs of poor Hmong refugees” ] and Major Junh [a Lao commander]. There was a battalion of them originally stationed at Nong Het, but they were on the move, trying to join up with Vang Pao. They were trying to get to Tham Ling, but they didn’t quite get there yet. They only arrived at the Khmu tasseng area. They were trying to catch up to Naxan.

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GL: Did many of them die?

No, because the enemy only fired big guns at them. That’s why there was all that dust. Most of them arrived at Pak Kha. We came back, and the next day another plane came.

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GL: Where did they come from? Savannakhet or Vientiane?

I have no idea. They just arrived.

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GL: Did a plane come each day? Did it come just to service Vang Pao?

Yes, each day a plane came, different size, not the same one all the time.

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GL: Did anybody else go in the plane?

Well, they tried to find other people, but they couldn’t find anyone willing to go, so most of the time I went. One time Vang Pao told Faydang (but this Faydang is Faydang Thao) to go, and Vang Pao gave him his own coat. But Faydang was shaking with fear, so Vang Pao just threw him on the ground, so I had to go again. And then on that day we hit a Lao woman on the air strip, and she died.

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GL: You didn’t tell us this before. Can you tell us more?

On this third trip, people were not allowed on the air strip, and everybody knew. This Lao woman just starting walking toward the southern end of the air strip to go to a village at the other end. We didn’t see her; we just came up on her suddenly and couldn’t stop. And I thought, “This is the end for us. We will die as well.” The plane hit the woman and just started climbing. If it couldn’t climb, we would have been dead in the ditch.

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GL: Who was the pilot that day?

The black American. We just continued and dropped leaflets to major Junh’s soldiers in Pak Kha.

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GL: Did you turn back to have a look at the dead Lao woman?

No! We just continued on. We had our job to do. We were only told more about her after we came back. And Vang Pao said, “It was good that you didn’t die, and only her.” So thank God for that. The woman’s husband came to ask me why we hit his wife. And I told him to go and read the sign. The sign said nobody was allowed to cross the air strip. So if you died, nothing could be done. And anyway, a lot of Lao peasants could not read. If you want to complain, it might not be well-received.

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GL: What else did you do at Naxan?

After that, more and more planes came and went to do their own work in different directions. Other people went, so I didn’t have to go so often. Then Vang Pao told me to take Ly Ong, Tou Gia, Faydang [Thao], and Vai [Lee] to go back to Phou Khae [overlooking the road between Xieng Khouang and the Plain of Jars] to be with Lue Vang and “radioed me information on enemy movements and gave a report to me of how many of Kong Le’s vehicles passed through on the way to us here”, he said. So we walked back and when we got to Bor Aung, where the road split in two, we heard Kong Le’s soldiers attacking Naxan [with artillery guns]. [Was Naxan attacked or did VP abandon it for a better location?] Vang Pao’s people scattered.

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GL: Why did Vang Pao always lose to Kong Le?

Because the Lao didn’t help the Hmong. It was mostly just the Hmong receiving the brunt of things. So when they abandoned Naxan, they went to Muong Cha. So the chief of the police, Major Mun, decided not to go with Vang Pao, but to go to Vientiane, because he was originally from Vientiane. He took with him about 200 of his police officers. Vang Pao could not stop him, but Thit Boun Thong [the deputy police chief] stayed on with Vang Pao, because he was a Xiang Khouang man. When Major Mun and his men got to Na Phu, the Hmong from Pha Lavae, who sided with the Pathet Lao, ambushed them and killed them. They arrested them and shot them, including their families, at least 180 people. Only two escaped. The attackers are Pathet Lao Hmong. I knew this, because when I met up with Mrs. Mun in Vientiane a few years later, she told me and cried a lot. [Mr. Lee was very close to this couple.] If he had joined Vang Pao, he might have survived. The two who escaped were Major Mun’s nephews, who were just 13, 14 years old, and who were only like carriers for their uncle. When the Hmong arrested them, they let them go because they were only young men and were not actual police. There were many sergeants and four or five lieutenants. They all died. Many of the police officers who were in Xieng Khouang with us actually came from Vientiane, most of the superior officers. So the [Xiang Khouang] provincial police force ceased to exist, and I then went in to join the military again. So when we got to Phu Khe [as ordered by VP], I put the men that came with me in the hands of Lue Vang.

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GL: Who is this Lue Vang?

Oh, he was a captain in the Lao army stationed in that area with his troops. He had barracks there. For some reason Kong Le didn’t come to attack him. That’s when I came and got you and your mother and brother and the whole family [from your hiding place in Khang Hong]. We then went to Na Mone, and we just slowly, slowly moved to make our way to Pa Dong. [GL: Pa Dong was Vang Pao’s headquarters at the time. It took about 2-3 months for us to get there because we were waiting to see if Vang Pao could re-take Xieng Khouang town, but this did not happen].

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GL: What happened to you after we got to Pa Dong?

I was with the military people there.

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GL: Why did Vang Pao abandon Pa Dong (about a week after we arrived there)?

I was not one of those who said we should abandon Pa Dong. I said we should stay. [Kong Le could never actually reach it, but often sent up artillery fire. There were rumours that Kong Le had the place surrounded]. Well, the enemy fired a lot of 105 and 107 guns at us.

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GL: Were you outnumbered? Were the enemy soldiers actually there?

No, there were not many of them at all. There were not many enemy soldiers on the ground, but they kept firing these big guns at us non-stop. We built good bunkers and suffered very few casualties.

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GL: Why did you run away then?

Well, you know Vang Pao only liked liars. By that time, Soua Yang was at Pa Dong with his soldiers. He and his soldiers were stationed on top of some place called Ban Sue. And he just abandoned his post without even seeing a single enemy soldier. I was at the headquarters with Colonel Chansom and we were given orders to abandon at all costs. There were five or six other Lao army officers there with us. They all ran away, even Chansom, so I had to go as well. I told the Hmong who stayed on to be careful, and to look out for mines. “Don’t step on them, so you can survive and return to your wives and children”, I said to them. So I came away with some other Hmong soldiers and when we got over the hill, one of them stepped on a mine that was laid there by Lee Cha and his soldiers. It didn’t kill anybody, but one piece of shrapnel hit Pao Vang on the head, and he became unconscious. There were 10 of us, so I asked the eight others to carry him up the steep mountainside. But after a while, he became too heavy for them, and they said, “We should just leave him on the side of the trail.” And I said, “No we must take him with us no matter what, because he is a relative of Vang Pao. Vang Pao would not like it if he found out.” But they refused. So when we came to Pha Hai, Vang Pao came to us in a helicopter. We told him, and he screamed at me. I said, “I was only one. There were eight of them, and they refused to carry him.” So Vang Pao gave each of them two kicks and insisted they go back to get the wounded man. And they had to go all the way back, nearly to Pa Dong. And that’s how we knew that the enemy didn’t come to Pa Dong at all, because when they got there, there were no enemy soldiers anywhere, and we were just told to abandon because of the heavy guns. So we just abandoned it without there being any enemy soldiers, or because Soua Yang lied to Vang Pao that they were overrun at his abandoned post.

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GL: So what did Soua Yang tell Vang Pao?

Soua Yang said that the enemy overran his barracks, burned everything, and when he got to Nao Cha Lee’s barracks, he told Nao Cha the same thing [before he got to Vang Pao], and Nao Cha just used his big 106 gun to fire a few rounds at this supposed enemy who took over Soua Yang’s post. And he even told Vang Pao that the enemy soldiers have started to surround Nao Cha’s post So Nao Cha just abandoned his post as well, even though the enemy never showed up. About ten days later they went back to the area, and there was not a single enemy soldier anywhere. And there was not a single person at Pa Dong, either. So they went back to Pa Dong and established a military post there again, but just a little one. And they established their bigger headquarters in Pha Khao.

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GL: Then what did you do after that?

I used to be in Battalion Number 21, but in 1963, I was transferred to Battalion 24, and was sent to Pak Kha. I was there for two years, with Colonel Neng Chu Thao. And Neng Chu arrived. He was the commander of Battalion 21, so I went to see him and asked to be transferred to Battalion 24, because in the two, three years I was under him, I never received a single pay, and I asked him, “Why? What did you do with my pay?” And he said “I just only received one month. I don’t know what happened to the rest.” [To this day he accuses his former wife of stealing it.] But Neng Chu told me that he didn’t know anything about my pay. I was not too happy, so I went to see Vang Pao. Vang Pao asked me if I wanted to make a formal complaint, and if Vang Pao found that Neng Chu stole my pay, he would put Neng Chu in jail. If my wife got my pay, he would put my wife in jail. He told me to go back home and think about it carefully. So I gave it a good thought, and I decided that all together I was supposed to have received 680,000 kip. But if I get that money and my wife was put in jail, or Neng Chu was put in jail, what would be the point?

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GL: Did you know that my mother actually got your pay? Who signed it over to her?

Oh, your brother-in-law [Vu Thao] signed for it for some, and Lee Ong for others.

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GL: So when you went to Pak Kha, you didn’t receive any pay? How did you survive?

Well, I did some trading to get money.

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GL: And that’s how you married a new wife? At that time?

Yes.

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GL: What did you do at Pak Kha?

I was in charge of the Second Bureau.

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GL: What did the Second Bureau do?

Gathering news and intelligence. I was responsible for handing out news for the Battalion and also getting information for them. Most of the soldiers were new recruits from the area and didn’t know anything about war or the army, including Yang Toua and Yang Chao. [These were college-educated young Hmong who just finished school and then the war came and they were stuck in their village. They were recruited into the army on account of their education. They later were promoted to colonel]. They don’t seem to know much about enemy movements. So the enemy came and fired at them, and I went there. So I had to report to them on enemy movements.

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GL: Who are these enemies? Kong Le or Vietnamese?

By this time, only Vietnamese.

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GL: What year was that?

1964. We established out barracks on top of a rocky mountain near Pak Kha. The Vietnamese came at us, and we sent four soldiers with four MAT-49s [a French rapid-fire gun that fires 30 rounds] to ambush the Vietnamese at a very narrow pass. When the Vietnamese got there, they were talking among ourselves to say “oum ba" [Vietnamese for “to kill”] And it happened that there were only four Vietnamese, too, and we thought there would be many more to follow. They didn’t see the four Hmong soldiers down there, but they were looking up at the barracks and aiming up there. So we four Hmong soldiers just fired at them and cut them down. We then sent some soldiers to run back to the Hmong village at Pak Kha to see if there were more Vietnamese there, and we saw a group of Pathet Lao Hmong who came with the Vietnamese. The soldiers we sent numbered 15 and they had a machine gun with them. But the Pathet Lao Hmong were exhausted when they arrived at our village, and were thirsty, so they were looking for water to drink. They were just putting down their backpacks in a Hmong house, in tasseng Xai Chue’s house and they were all crowding around a bucket of water, so our soldiers just mowed them down. They all died, but they never buried them. All the village people had run away. But the domestic animals were still in the village, so these dead men were just consumed by the pigs. So the pigs ate them all. That’s why I say, “Pigs are really bad.” They not only eat the flesh, but they crunch all the bones as well. Only little bits of bones were left. They’re really dirty pigs. I’ve never seen anything like that. When we abandoned our post at Phak Kha Noi [Small Phak Kha] we booby-trapped four or five [land mines that jump up to your waist before they explode] and another group of Pathet Lao Hmong came, a whole company. Some of these Pathet Lao Hmong discovered these mines, but they said, “Let’s go into the bunkers and then we’ll pull the trigger and see how they explode.” But these mines didn’t send shrapnel out, they send them down, and killed six of them, including two of their leaders. So they stopped playing with these bombs and just went back. These Pathet Lao Hmong came from Tham Thao, a two days’ walk from Pak Kha.

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GL: Can you tell us something about the assassination of the Hmong commander Tong Chao (Lee Nao Lue) by two of his soldiers? What’s the story there?

This is how it went. Tong Chao was the battalion commander, Battalion 24, and I was helping him. He said I was his deputy. Tong Chao was young, very quick-tempered, and depended a lot on me. About a month after he arrived there, he asked his relatives to come, including Jua Pao, Tua Feng, Va Sao, Va Kay. They all came and stayed. He was a major. He was an officer with full training from the Lao military, not one of Vag Pao’s CIA instant soldiers [though his sister was married to Vang Pao]. I couldn’t argue with him, either. When he brought those relatives of his over, he didn’t tell me. He put Va Kay in charge of a company that used to be under Her Cha and Her Doua. He put Va Sao in charge of Company Number Two. Then he sent the soldiers to war, keeping his relatives [“the commanders”] safely behind. And he sent them [the soldiers] to a village called Pha Khao, and to a Lao village called Sanai. Some of the soldiers came to him [Tong Chao] and said, “You have given the company command to your relatives, and they should be the ones that go to war with these soldiers.” But he refused to listen. He told Her Cha and Her Doua to go. And Va Sao, who now commanded Company Number 2 didn’t go either, but the soldiers had to go. But the Company made no complaint. Her Tou and Her Doua came to see him with Vang Cha and a soldier called Punh. This Punh was Khmu, and he was not guilty of anything. He just happened to come there at that time. They said to him, “Commander, you have given command to new people, and they should go, not us. Va Kay should go with his soldiers”, Her Cha said that. Her Cha just finished saying this when Tong Chao slapped him on the mouth. And he said to them, “You used to be in command. Why can’t you go?” They replied immediately, “You have changed command. You have given command to Va Kay. Va Kay should go. You should tell Va Kay to go.” Tong Chao then said, “You want to talk some more?” [A less-than veiled threat] Her Cha’s assistant, who was carrying a pistol, pulled out his gun and shot Tong Chao in the stomach. Maybe they had it all planned before coming. They both rushed outside [Her Cha and his assistant]. They just made that one shot. Since then, I have felt very hurt [disenchanted?], even if you are very closely related to a person, because people have no trust, don’t believe in each other. Our barracks were on top of the village, but our office was in a house in the village, and Tong Chao and I worked in there. The village was quite big, and at that moment, a lot of Hmong women seemed to be walking around. So I grabbed a gun and tried to shoot at these two, but there were people in the way. When you got them in sight, some women seemed to just come in between, so I couldn’t shoot, and they escaped.

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GL: These two, did they also live in the village?

Yes.

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GL: Were they Green Hmong?

Yes. [Tong Chao was White Hmong] I ran to the house at the bottom of the village where they disappeared, and I asked the people there, “Did they come in here?” They said, “No! We didn’t see them!” I had one look inside the bedroom, but I didn’t pull back the curtain. If I had, they [the two men hiding behind the curtain] would have killed me. I just came back and called the whole company to come forward, and I asked each soldier to surrender his gun, because they might come to the headquarters and cause trouble. I got 68 guns altogether. I got down all their gun serial numbers and put them away.

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GL: Were they in full military uniform?

Yes, all dressed up in green. I came home. Then I went to see Tong Chao in his office, and he was dead. And I asked, “From one single shot?” And they said, “Yes, it went through his body and through his back.”

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GL: Well, what about his relatives who were the cause of all this trouble?

They were all there, but they couldn’t do anything. They were just shaking with fear. So I scolded them and asked them to take his body to the air strip [to be returned to his family]. We then immediately called for a plane to come and get him to give him a funeral at Long Cheng. His body was accompanied by his youngest wife, who is a cousin of your mother. Villagers were forced to hand over young women to soldiers who wanted them as their wives. After his body was taken away, I didn’t want to stay on anymore. I wanted to come home, too, because I was feeling very hurt and depressed.

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GL: Why?

I didn’t have any close relatives there. Anybody could do anything to me, and nobody would care. So Nhia Dang Kue, who had also been to Long Cheng with Tong Chao before, said to me, “If you went back to Long Cheng, then we are finished here in Pak Kha. We will be split into different factions. So it would be better if you stayed, and to see where those other two have escaped to.” I thought about it, and I radioed Ly Tou Pao [Vang Pao’s chief of staff and Tong Chao’s older brother]. I told him, “Thong Chao’s money is in a box here He has 200,000 kip there. If you agree, I will use this money as a reward for the men who killed him,” because they had run away to their relatives near Phonsavan by that time. [Phak Kha was near the Vietnamese border] . If you don’t agree, I will just send you the money and everything is finished.” Tou Pao said, “Yes, do it. Take it to Naikong Sia Chue and ask him to announce the reward.” So I took it to him. So we radioed the announcement all around. Then, I managed to talk to them on the radio and I told them that a person’s life only costs 30,000 [kip]. So if you come back and can get this 200,000 and you use that to pay for Tong Chao’s life, you would be spared. But they were naive. Six days later they came back and resumed their normal lives as if nothing happened, and they just led a normal life for two months with their soldiers.

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GL: Were you there still all that time?

Yes, I was there, because I was trying to get them arrested. After two months, General Khamkhong [from Paksane, training HQ for Region 2] came with four small planes to get Her Tou, Her Chai, and Her Doua. So Khamkhong came and said, “I am Vang Pao’s superior, and I don’t want you to fall into Vang Pao’s hands. I will take you with me to protect you.” The plane could only carry eight people. When they got to Paksane, they were surrounded by soldiers with guns in hand, who just tied them up. They were told to surrender their guns [sidearms] and were put outside for the mosquitoes to bite them all night long. They were tied up under a house in the open. The next day they were told to get into a plane going to Long Cheng. So they put them in the plane to come to Long Cheng. When they arrived at the airport, Ly Tou Pao’s family didn’t bother with law and order. They killed Her Cha and his assistant, and also the Khmu, Phunh, even though he had nothing to do with the murder. As soon as he got down from the plane, the members of Ly Tou Pao’s family bashed Va Tou to death. They trampled on him, all his bones were broken.

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GL: Who were they?

All the Lee related to that family. Vang Pao said, “He had committed a crime, so it doesn’t matter that they killed him.” So they took Her Cha. The person they bashed to death is the one that did the shooting. So the two, Her Cha and Punh, they imprisoned them in a hole. At first they gave them food in the hole near the cliff at Long Cheng airport. They gave them food for about a month, then let them starve and left them to their own devices. So they ate the parachute that was used as a mosquito net for them, bit by bit. They still didn’t die. They were starving and just had the bones on their body. Then they died inside the hole. That’s the end of that story.

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GL: Why did they put Punh in prison if he was not involved?

Oh, you know, those Hmong Lee from Nong Het, they were not easy people. A long time ago, when they had a lot of power, you never wanted to make a complaint to them about anything. You couldn’t say a word.

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GL: Where else did you go after those two were put in the hole? Did you come back to Long Cheng?

Yes, I did. I didn’t stay in Pak Kha anymore.

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GL: And then did you go to live in Sam Thong? What were you doing in Sam Thong?

Oh, I was nearing the end of my service, so most people like me were put to work in Sam Thong doing office work. I was told to apply for retirement, and they would pay me half my salary: 8,000 kip a month. After about two years, I got my retirement approved, and I got out [c. 1968]. After Sam Thong was overrun, we went to Muong Pheng. We went to Muong Pheng, and then we went to live in Phak Khe, [near Long Cheng] and I went to live in the bamboo village for about four, five years, just farming. Yeah, I was just a farmer then, growing rice, growing corn until 1975. In 1975, everybody was running in different directions, leaving Phak Khe empty. And Colonel Jua Va Lee [the only colonel in the Royal Lao Army who was a real colonel] told me to come up to the road from the village with my bags and he would take me to Vientiane to escape to Thailand with the other Hmong people. No one Lee should stay behind.

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GL: Touby said no one should leave. Why did you want to leave?

I will tell you. When Jua Va arrived, his car was too full for us to get on, so we could not leave with them. We decided to stay. Now Lyteck went with Kham Kho -

GL: Who is Kham Ko?

A colonel from the Pathet Lao army who was working in the area after VP left. So, anyway, we were then called to go to Phak Khe, the settlement joining Long Cheng and Ban Sone, so we could listen to Touby. He was going to come and give a speech there.

GL: But Uncle Touby did not want anyone to leave. Why did you and others want to leave?

Well, everybody was leaving, but there were still a lot of people who did not leave. Anyway, we were told to go to Pha Khe where Touby was to give us a talk, it does not matter how many of us. So, we all went there. But I tell you, when your time is up, there is nothing you can do. Anything can happen to you. Touby came with Kham Ko to speak to us. After Touby finished his speech, a group of young people ranging from 10 to 12 years of age stood up and mocked him. They spat at him, made lewd gestures and showed all sorts of other rude behaviour. I don’t know if they had been coached by their parents. Before this Uncle Touby, whatever he said was believed and respected by every one. So I said to him, “Big Brother Phagna, you came to talk to us today, that was good and we would not run away. But what these kids did to you showed how little regard people now have for you. It would be best if you leave this place.”

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GL: Did he try to do anything about these kids?

Nothing. He did not do anything. He just stood there.

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GL: What about Lyteck? Was he there?

Yes, he also came.

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GL: And Yang Dao?

No, he was not there. He had not come yet. Anyway, I said to Uncle Touby that he should not come and talk to the Hmong anymore and if he kept coming, something bad would happen. I already heard that they were going to kill Phagna (another name used for Touby, his Lao title meaning Sir or Lord) and Lyteck.

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GL: Who would want to kill them?

The Lo clan people (on the Chao Fa side). So I ordered some rice noodle for him and his party, and asked that he never returned there, because if he came again the Chao Fa might really carry out their threat.

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GL: Were there many Chao Fa around already at that time (April or May 1975)?

Yes, many had rounds of ammunition all hanging around their waist and walking around openly to display them. They were in Pha Khe, and used to work with VP, these were not the Lao people on the Pathet Lao/Faydang side. Touby said “That’s what you really think? You may be right but we shouldn’t be afraid”. I said to him “No, it’s real, no bluffing. This time your life is spared, but maybe not next time, so don’t come anymore. Just one or two you came. Who would be afraid of you?“

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GL: Did they come by car?

No, they came by plane. Touby and his small party then departed. After they had left, two of the sons of Thaotou (Yang, the PL Hmong military chief) came. One of them was General Paseut (the Hmong commander of the Pathet Lao Kong Pachay battalion). He came with many of his relatives. They came and stayed for two nights. On the second night, the Chao Fa Hmong Lo lay bombs next to the house where they stayed and killed them. One bomb was laid on the northern side of the house, the other on the eastern side. The people inside the house were about to have dinner when both bombs went off and they all died. Paseut died there, and they (the Pathet Lao) were not happy. They took his body to the air strip to be taken back home. But they also wanted us to go and have a look at him. So many of us went, and some even cried when they saw the bodies.

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GL: How many were killed by the bombs?

12 people, all Pathet Lao Hmong military officers and soldiers. After the bodies were flown back to Vientiane, the Chao Fa were not happy with us.

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GL: Why?

Two reasons: one was that we went to see the bodies of dead PL Hmong. The second reason was that we went to listen to Touby. So we were very edgy about the situation. We decided to leave. It was rice harvest time, so we told the local officials that we wanted to go to the fields and harvest our rice. We had a horse and used it to transport some of our family possessions. My family and four other families went to to Pha Meng (Pham Meeb).

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GL: Where is Pha Meng?

Near Pha Hoei, not far from Pha Khe. When we arrived there, they would not let us go back. We know the villagers there and they said it would be safer for us to stay with them. These were Chao Fa followers. We told them we would like to go and take our families to stay at Pha Leng (Pham Leem) first, then return to help them fight against the Pathet Lao (PL) at Pha Meng. So we crossed the Nam Ngum river and asked some in-law relatives to row us on some rafts across the river. We went to Pha Leng, near Pongtha (Poos Tha) just west of from Long Cheng towards Vang Vieng (as the crow flies). We stayed there for one rice season. We helped our in-law relatives to harvest rice and were able to get a lot of rice, so we stayed on. After a while Ga Ge (Nkaj Zeb), Sia Tu (Txhiaj Tub) and Sai Heu (Xaiv Hawj) joined the Chao Fa and started fighting against the new Lao government. So they came to get me, and we went to stay with them at Pha Phai (Pham Phais). We had many skirmishes with the PL soldiers who came from Na Sou on their way to Nam Long (Naj Loom) along the dirt road there. Anyway, they often sustained casualties, but there was no hospital or medicine. The wounds became infected with puss. I said to them that this was no good, they had to wash the wounds and used herbs on them, so we boiled water and washed the wounds. I gave them leaves from a plant called “Rawm” to put on the wounds. At first they did not believe me, but I said they should give it a try. So they tried, and the wound became healed. Then, they wanted me to stay on and give herbs to their wounded men. That was how I stayed on there.

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GL: The Chao Fa, they still had guns and ammunition at that time?

Yes, they had what they were given from the old days under Vang Pao. The Lao attacked the Hmong wherever the Hmong showed up or could be found. One day, they went to attack the Lao at Na Sou, including the sons of both the first and second wives of Sia Tu (Txhiaj Tub). The Lao all fled, leaving behind a blacksmith forge. Near its nozzle, the Lao had hidden 15 bars of silver money under a pile of char coal. It was seen by a young boy who told Vaj, one of Sia Tou’s sons, but the latter took all of them and did not share with the boy. They had a dispute over the money, and Vaj was judged to be in the wrong. So the money was divided between the two of them. Sia Tou and his sons became unhappy and moved back all the way to Phu Bia, to be with other Chao Fa people. That was the beginning of the scattering of the Chao Fa in our area. After Sia Tou and his sons has left, another Hmong of the Lee clan became the resistance leader for us. He came to marry a very young Hmong girl, 10 year old. I said to him “stop, do not marry one so young”.

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GL: How old was he: 30, 40?

Oh! More than that. Anyway, he would not listen to me. He told me not to put my nose in his business. He liked the girl and he had already made up his mind to marry her. So I thought “well, maybe it is better to leave things alone”. After 6 days of marriage, the girl refused to stay with him. So, the husband forced the parents and the girl to make her stay with him, to continue with the marriage. Otherwise, he would kill them all.

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GL: But he was a Cha Fa leader and he used force on people?

Yes. But I told them that if the girl was not willing, they should divorce. So she divorced him. That hurt his pride and he took his family back to Phu Bia as well. So there were no Chao Fa left in Pha Phay. He joined about 200 others on their way back to Phu Bia. When they got to Jua Khi mountain, Lao soldiers fired mortar at them and killed 5-6 people. We decided to leave for Phu Bia, as well, but we were with another group and did not follow their route. We went through Nam Yenh and onto Phu Faimai where we stayed for 2 or 3 years.

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GL: Lao soldiers did not come and harass you?

Yes. The people there were mostly of the Lee clan. The Lao and Vietnamese troops came to attack us 2-3 times, but we stayed put. So they decided to attacked from the East and managed to rout the Hmong living at Tia Nhu Qu (Wild Ox Plain). After that, they just called us together and we surrendered.

GL: How did they call you?

They sent messengers to every settlement. They distributed leaflets and gave us talks.

GL: What was in the leaflets?

They said that if we surrendered, they would not kill us and there would be no punishment. Everyone would just be allowed to go and make a living in any way within the law. Just so long as we agreed to be law-abiding citizens. So we gave ourselves up to the Lao authorities. Lots of us. There must be more than 100 families. One person in front carried a white flag.

GL: Was that a surrender flag?

Yes, a Hmong flag with strip of red and green material on either side. So we gave them the flag and surrendered and were taken to live in Tia Nhu Qu (Wild Ox Plain) under the Lao. Many Lao and Vietnamese soldiers came to supervise the area.

GL: Was it Lao or Vietnamese soldiers?

Mostly Vietnamese. Many, many of them. The Lao brought a lot of rice for the soldiers and for us. They had two granaries or rice in our area, but they only distributed enough rice to last one day and one night not more. So we went to stay there. After a few months, they asked us to move to Thong Ha (Five Plains). Uncle No Pao’s son. I don’t remember his name now, he was the Tasseng (canton chief) for us. Neng Yia, that’s his name. He was told to come and get us to go and stay in his village. He sponsored all the Lee families to go to his village.

GL: What about people from other clans?

Other clan leaders accepted them. So we went to line at Thong Ha.

GL: Where is Thong Ha?

Upstream of the Nam Mo river between Pha Khe and Muong Cha. It was very good for rice growing, and Vang Pao built 50 houses for the Hmong to settle there during his time. It was good for cattle grazing as well. From there, Fay Yia and Tong Yer came to get us to go and stray with them at Pha Ngonh.

GL: How many families?

4-5 families of us. Uncle Song Yer, Nyia Koua, Uncle Xai Shua and Uncle Jia Va, all closely related families. So we went to live in Pha Ngonh, and this happened. Nao Yee, the Tasseng at Pha Ngonh, was one of our nephews, and he asked me to help him resolve a number of community disputes because I used to be a Tasseng. We came to know each other well, and he obtained written permission from the Chao Muong (district governor) for me to take 20 people to go and visit Na Yao, a Hmong settlement in the lowlands near the Mekong River. There were about 4-5 families with my own. When we got to Tha Lat, we paid for taxis to take us to Muong Phuong ñ it was still cheap then, about 1500 kips per family. When we got to a Hmong village called Nam Pong, we asked if we could spend the night there. The Lao agreed and we stayed at Nam Pong. Once there, Blia Neng (the head of one of the families coming with us) said we should not go to Na Yao, but should go to Dong Jai (Roob Ncaib, a big mountain range south of Luang Prabang). It took us two days on foot to get there. We grew crops and lived at Dong Jai for four years.

GL: Was it then that you managed to make contact with us in Australia?

No, it was before that, while I was living at Pha Ngonh. I went to seek information on your address from Xa Yua Chao and his brothers Pa Ying and Chong Teng (relatives of Lyteck Lynhiavue) in K52 Village. For some reasons, they had your address in Australia, so I wrote to you and you were able to send me money.

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GL: After you moved to Dong Jai, did you come to Vientiane regularly?

Yes, about once every two months to send letters to you and your brothers (who had gone to resettle in Australia since 1976). Anyway, after 4 years at Dong Jai, we got permission to move to K52. Only my own family this time. By then, we had problems with the relatives who used to be with us. When we were at Dong Jai, they had people coming over from the refugee camps in Thailand to get them and escape to Thailand. But they did not even let us know. When we learned about it, they all had gone, except 4 other families in our clan group too poor or too insignificant to be allowed to join their escape (you had to have money to pay the Thai to get you across the Mekong river). Anyway, after we got to K52, we bought rice and other necessities and we went on to Na Yao. I was given written travel permit from the Lao police at K52, so we did not have trouble getting past police check points along the way. They just countersigned on the permit and let us go. After we arrived at Na Yao, we settled there and were looking for rice fields to clear. We grew one season of crop, rice and corn. The corn plants were already flowering. The area was all virgin forests and very good for cultivation.

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One day, we decided to escape to Thailand. There were 300 of us, and we paid 1500 kips to the local Hmong police officer so he would not interfere with our plan. He was very good. He even came with us to show the way to Thailand. We walked through the jungle for hours, and arrived at Phu Chong Kong from where we crossed the Mekong into Ban Vinai refugee camp, Thailand. That was in 1986.

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GL: All 300 of you arrived safely?

Yes, all were safe. We had to pay some Lao guides to come with us but there were no Hmong from the refugee camp to show us the way.

GL: Before this successful escape, you tried once before but were arrested by the Lao authorities? When was that?

Yes. That was after you visited Thailand in 1978. You left one of your photos with your mother’s cousin, Pa Xee Yang. He contacted a Lao man while in the refugee camp in Thailand to search for me to get my family and me to escape to Thailand. He would get paid with the money that you left with your Uncle Pa Xee. This Lao man said that he knew us and came to K52 with our photos. He eventually found us living in K52, and he said he had already arranged with Lao officials to let us escape. There was another Hmong family that came with us. We were taken in a small truck by two Lao police officers upstream along the Mekong river from Vientiane city. They left us near a Lao village called Ban On just across the river from Thailand. The Lao man left us in a clearing, and the truck returned to Vientiane. He said he would come back to work on his field in the late afternoon, and would bring his boat to get us across the Mekong to Thailand. But he never came back to us. We learned that he got arrested by the local Lao officials, and he told them that were hiding in the forest nearby. By dawn the next day, three Lao men and two women came to call us to the village. We were taken to the house of the village chief, and to this day I have been so unhappy with the Lao people there. We were very thirsty, and we begged them for water to drink, but they gave dirty water contaminated with little water bugs.

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We were made to wait a whole day, and in the evening some village militia came to take us to the Chao Muong or district governor of Kao Liao (north of Vientiane city). The Chao Muong interrogated us for our story. We told them that a Lao came to entice us to escape to Thailand, so they brought the Lao man to us (they already took him there ahead of us), and asked if it was this man. We said yes. They detained us at Kao Liao for two days in the local detention centre, then sent us on to a prison at Sikhay in Vientiane city. We stayed at Sikhay for 3-4 days, then were transferred to the big prison at That Dam where we remained for a month. After that, they sent us to a prison in Muong Kao near Phon Haung in the countryside.

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GL: Why did they imprison you? What was your crime?

They never said. At Muong Kao, we were not really like in a prison. We were under guards but they made us weave baskets and rice containers, make knives and other tools depending on what each person wanted to do or knew what to make. There were many, many young men under detention there. Altogether, there must have been 3,000 - 4,000 people. In some of the buildings, there was hardly anything to lie down at night. People were put there for all kinds of crimes and reasons. But they were not very strict with older people like myself.

GL: Did they feed you well?

Yes, they gave us enough rice, but there was nothing to go with it. So I bought meat with the money you sent me. Those without relatives in other countries to help them, did not have much to eat, so we gave them some if we had anything left over. The younger people were detained in big buildings, but the women and older men were left to wander in and out of the detention centre at will. We could even go outside to the market or the local villages, so long as we returned to the centre at night. We were kept there for two months, then they gave us a written letter saying that we could go anywhere to make a new life. That why we decided to go to Na Yao, as I said before.

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GL: From Na Yao, you then went to Dong Jai?

No, we escaped to Thailand and we arrived at Ban Vinai refugee camp where we stayed for 6 months. The UN finished processing us and gave us official documents, then we were taken to Chiang Kham refugee camp at Pa Yao, Thailand.

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GL: How long were you in Chiang Kham before you came to Australia?

About 6 months only. After we were accepted to Australia, they took us to Phanat Nikhom camp, southeast of Bangkok. We were there for two months.

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GL: What did they do to you at Phanat Nikhom?

They did not do much. They just finished all health checks, taught English to the younger people, and processed our travel documents. It was a famous place where they inspect your genitals because the Hmong did not like to go through the strip search health inspection.

GL: When did you arrive in Australia?

We got here in August 1988.

GL: So what do you think about all your life experiences, from the beginning a long time ago to now?

This is what I think. I think that because you were my oldest son and you were good with your studies, you could get a scholarship to come and finish a very high education in Australia. In the old country, we only had enough to eat, not very rich, not very poor. Life was not like today in this new country. When I could join you and your brothers in Australia, my life really changed for the better.

GL: So you think this life is better than the life back in Laos?

Yes. This new life is not like the old life at all. Now we have good food to eat, and nice clothes to wear. As a father, I am very happy that we have you here, and you helped to bring us to this new and peaceful life. Without you, we would still be suffering like the people back in Laos.

GL: What do you think about the war in the old country and the leaders there? Do you think the greed for power caused all that suffering for the people?

Yes. I remember after you came back for vacation one year from Australia, you told me that it would be futile to continue with the war, because we would never win. I did not know any better then so I thought you must be weird to think like that. I even scolded you at that time. Later after we lost the war, I realised how right you were, that we should never have got ourselves involved with the French or the Americans in the war in Laos. We did not win, just like you said, after they left and abandoned us. I did not think about the Vang Pao era, but just the time I was working for the French. War made everyone suffer. You might be fine at home, but when you had to go to front and face your enemy, you suffer.

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GL: Do you have any last words for young Hmong in the future or for us children?

I think whatever we do, we need to love each other, to show respect; younger brother respecting his older brother, and vice versa. Older brothers see parents like the sky (God), younger brothers see older siblings like parents. This would make us better people and make us love each other more. Older ones should listen to younger ones, and younger ones listen to older ones. Do not quarrel, do not fight and argue. Just forgive wrong doings and help each other. There is a saying that a thick forest is hard to clear, a large group of brothers is difficult to win in a dispute. Do not cause conflicts to other people, love each other and help each other.

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