Touby’s group became very upset, because Tong Va was one of their military leaders. The Hmong at Tham Hit who supported Thao Tou, built a barrack on top of a hill.  They took all their wives and children to stay there at night. At dawn, they would come down to their village, to their houses, to cook, so the French booby-trapped grenades in some of the houses. The grenades were put under the grass that covered the roof. At the first crow of the rooster, as they came down to cook breakfast, the fire warmed the grass, and the grenades exploded. Many of them were killed: women, men, children. Then we went after them and had a three-day battle. They were routed, scattered in defeat. We outnumbered them, as there were a few groups of us. Some came from one direction, another group from a different direction.

​

GL: What year was that and any Vietnamese?

It was before the Viet Minh came to Xieng Khouang town in 1953. [GL:  Reference to 7,000 Vietnamese must have been in 1953: 4, 000 who came and many were killed in Nong Het was earlier before that date.  Figures cited are only personal estimates and tend to be on the high side.]

GL: When was it that this Hmong-against-Hmong fighting occurred?

I can’t remember too well. A year or two before the Viet Minh came into Laos [c. 1950-51]. So after we scattered the Hmong from Tham Hit, they took all their wives and children into Vietnam. They first went to Hong Thu before they went to Muong Sene (inside Vietnam). While they stayed at Muong Sene, many of their children became sick and died, and many wives were sick. Many husbands had also been killed in battle. So they came back to Laos. They were sent back to their old village at Tsua Tho. They went through a lot of hardship: no food, no money. Touby, because they were related to him through his first wife, went to bring them over and marry off the widows to whoever could take them so they would have someone to support them. It took two years to marry off all these widowed wives.

​

GL: How many families were involved?

Oh, it must have been 50 or 60 families. As you can see,  I have seen all the good and the bad. All the wives were married off for free. They were very poor. Their husbands all died from war. There was no one to find food for them. They would rather have a husband in Laos than have to live in Vietnam [as a starving widow]. So they all got married. That’s how they escaped all the hardship. And that’s the beginning. After that, then we had the Vietnamese coming to make war with the French in 1953, and then the Lao civil war in 1961, and then Kong Le and Vang Pao’s war.

​

Before we talk about the Kong Le war in 1960, could you tell us about your personal life in the period after Dien Bien Phu when many Hmong in Vietnam on the French side, like Yang Dao’s father, escaped to Laos? What did you do at that time after 1954?

I was still in the military at the time when General Khamhu came to take over as Military Region II commander. Khamhu had a Vietnamese father and a Lao mother, so we saw him as the Vietnamese general. But Khamhu had leanings toward the (communist) Pathet Lao, and one of Touby’s sons called Va, also showed sympathies for the Pathet Lao. But we refused to show any support.

GL: What was Vang Pao doing by this time?

He finished his officer training school and was already a commanding officer. He belonged to Battalion Number 10, but there were many other Lao officers, and they tried to kill Vang Pao. Vang Pao was the commanding officer to some of these Lao officers, and they didn’t like him for that, so they rebelled against him at the Plain of Jars. They wanted to kill him, and he fled to Lat Houang. Vang Pao and three or four other Hmong who were in the Lao Army with him, escaped to Lat Houang from the Plain of Jars. He went into hiding in the village of Dong Dane on the way to Xieng Khouang town. There were many Hmong living there at that time, including his wife’s relatives. The Hmong leaders banded together and mobilized many Hmong with guns from all around (including Nai Kong Xiong Pao Lee from Phue Lue) to go back to the Plain of Jars. There were no more French there by then.

The Hmong scared off the Lao military officers there, and arrested General Sinh and a few other high commanding officers to send them back to southern Laos. There were five or six of them, and the Hmong were treating them a little bit harshly, like kicking them, beating them up, even though they were very high-ranking. But this was not done by Vang Pao. They were all tied up and could not do anything to defend themselves, because their subordinates all ran away. They were all put back in one plane to send to southern Laos to General Phoumi (Nosavane) in Savannakhet [who aligned with Vang Pao and the American CIA]. By that time [1958], Touby was a deputy (in the Lao National Assembly) in Vientiane, and I had become a police officer in Xieng Khouang town. I owed this change to Chao Saykham [2]. At that time, all the Hmong who used to serve as soldiers under the French were transferred into the Royal Lao Army [3]. About a year or so after we returned from Dien Bien Phu (1955?), I was told to go to work with Major Anamay in Sam Neua. But Chao Saykham said to me, “Lee Lue, you have been one of my military leaders for more than ten years. But you only know how to read and write Lao. Many of those people in the army now know how to read and write French as well as Lao. You would not be able to write a telegraphic message or a letter in French. They would not like you. The best thing would be for me to transfer you to the provincial police.” So he sent me there, to work with Lao and Hmong police officers like Ly Ong or Tou Yia, and Hang Sao. I transferred with my full military rank straight into the provincial police. Although I did not come into it from a police academy, I was given a pistol.​

​

[2] He was the Governor of Xieng Khouang province and a friend of Touby and the Hmong people until 1975 when he escaped to France with his family as refugees.

[3] The Royal Lao Army was formed under the Franco-Lao General Convention of 19 July 1949, and “by the end of 1952 comprised seventeen companies, in addition to a battalion entirely commanded by Laotian officers.” (Laos: a country study. Ed. by A. M. Savada. Washington DC: Library of Congress, 1995. p. 31)

GL: Didn’t other police also get pistols?

No, not every body.

​

GL: How long were you in the police force?

Oh, many years. More than ten years, because even when I was with Vang Pao [after 1961], I was still paid through the police, and I received 16,800 kip a month.

GL: What did you do as a police officer?

Officially, I was in the police until 1961, until the Kong Le War. But Lao police officers did not operate like Western police officers. You were supposed to help the people, and not cause trouble for people. You are supposed to stop people from doing bad things to each other, and to also deal with officials who are bad to people. You have to go and see these bad people and deal with them.

​

GL: Did you have to do any training?

Yes, we had to do police training, but only in Xieng Khouang town. They came and gave us training there: running, jumping over hurdles, carrying things, all sorts of physical training. I managed to finish the training, because I had experience in the military. I had jumped from aeroplanes and did many other things. All you needed was not to be afraid.

​

GL: I remember you going away for long periods when you were a police officer. What did you do?

Oh, we went to gather intelligence on the Vietnamese or to investigate crimes in different areas.

​

GL: But you were police officers. Why collect intelligence on Vietnamese military activities?

The police had to do it, too. We had to report on enemy activities. That’s why I went away so often. When the Kong Le War came [in 1961], then the Vang Pao War, we became involved in the fighting.

​

GL: As police officers?

Yes. We had weapons and had to join in military battles.  Not enough soldiers.

​

GL: So did you go to stop Kong Le at the Steel Bridge (Choj Hlau) that crosses the Nam Ngum River [before the road reaches the Plain of Jars from Phu Khun]?

[In a famous episode there, Kong Le’s tanks and trucks came up at that bridge. Vang Pao was at a Hmong New Year festival and was not there with his troops. He told his officers to take over, but they were overwhelmed. They had new artillery (from the CIA) that they didn’t know how to use, so they just abandoned post].

Yes, I went with some other people. But when we got there, we didn’t know how to use the new big gun [phom loj]. We tried a few tricks, and we fired a few rounds. But by that time, it was too late. Kong Le and his troops had already crossed the Steel Bridge [West of Phonsavane]. So we just blew up two other bridges that crossed two little rivers further down the road, and then came back to look at the big gun, as I said before. It was much later that we learned to fire this 106 [mm].

​

GL: Who brought this big gun to you, the French or the Americans?

The Americans. They had become more involved by that stage. [The CIA helped Phoumi Nosavan chase out Kong Le from Vientiane in 1960]

​

GL: When did the Americans come to the Hmong?

The year Kong Le lost power in Vientiane [1961] trying to make Laos a neutral country. So we came back to Xieng Khouang town, after our defeat by Kong Le [at the Steel Bridge]. Then, I sent you and your mother and the family to hide in the jungle in Khang Hong and I went to Naxan with the rest of the police force, and Vang Pao’s troops.

​

GL: You went there to hide or to go on to some other place?

We were planning to go on to Savannakhet to join Gen. Phoumi Nosavanh, the rightist pro-American Lao leader. When we got to Naxan,  the Americans came in two helicopters.

​

GL: Can you tell us in greater detail about this particular time of the war? So on the 1st of January 1961, when Kong Le marched into Xieng Khouang town and my mother and our family went to hide north of the town and you and your police officers and Vang Pao and his soldiers all went south to Naxan, what really happened there? Did you march the whole night and then you reached Naxan?

All the people in the provincial administration [civilian government], all the people in the provincial public service: the police, the military [on the right wing side], the provincial governor [Chao Saykham], Touby and their families. All the wives, Touby's wives - were sent to Nasu, at the bottom of Pha Dong. A radio was given to Touby’s family. Touby was in Vientiane at that time. Only his wives and children were in Xieng Khouang town. The day before Kong Le arrived, the Americans dropped a lot of parachutes, a lot of weapons for us in Xieng Khouang. We collected them, and we filled two rooms with them. But we just abandoned them when we went south [to Naxan].

GL: Why didn’t you give them away to your soldiers?

But everyone had their own gun already, so everybody would have had two. Guns were plentiful at this time. The idea was for us to use them to stop Kong Le and his troops, but we couldn’t [not enough people], so we just abandoned the new guns.

​

GL: Why couldn’t you stop Kong Le? He didn’t have many soldiers.

We didn’t have the big guns, and Kong Le used a lot of big guns, with help from the French and Russians. [GYL: I could remember them firing “Boom! Boom!” everywhere when they came to invade Xieng Khouang town]. They just fired them ahead to scare people. Kong Le had 105 mm artillery, so we couldn’t resist.

​

GL: You were only very few. Was that right?

Oh, no. We had quite a number, about 500 to 600 Hmong soldiers.

​

GL: What about the Lao?

About four or five companies, all under Vang Pao, some under Phoumi. The Hmong said, “We should go and stop Kong Le at Dong Dane [c. 30 miles from XK town on the way to the Plain of Jars], but the Lao didn’t want to. They refused. They said, “We would never win. We just have to run.”  Vang Pao agreed and we escaped, starting from Si Som [a small village in the Dong Dane area]. At the beginning, we each had two rifles, two carbines. When we got to Si Som, we hid the second gun in the jungle and only had one each on our shoulders. We walked for a whole night and a whole day. We went to [the region of] Tha Vieng [in the south]. When we got there, the Americans came. The Americans came at Naxan [past Tha Vieng]

​

GL: Why did the Americans come? Why did they stop you there?

They came in two helicopters. There were only six or seven people. And they said we should not run away; we should resist. Vang Pao told them no, we could not resist. The Americans said, “We will bring ammunition and weapons to you right away.” So they brought 106s [artillery guns], four or five of them, to Naxan. They made people level [by hand] the rice terraces there to make an airstrip. So we decided to stay put at Naxan. When we got the airstrip constructed, two winged airplanes, one big one and one yellow one, landed. The [small] yellow one came first. Then, they asked if anybody could go in the plane to drop leaflets to those [on our side] who were scattered in other areas. But nobody wanted to go.  It was something new and risky: riding a flimsy plane and dropping leaflets over dangerous enemy territories. I decided to try and I said to Vang Pao, “If I go and I’m shot down, will you look after my wife and children?” I also asked him, “Where did they print the leaflets, and what was printed on them?” He said he didn’t know where they came from; they just came in big bundles. And the message was to resist Kong Le, not to give in to Kong Le.

​

GL: Who was the pilot? Was he American?

No, it was a Lao pilot, and the plane was very old. The pilot had to push a lever on the side forward when we had to lift off, and then push it backward for us to land. After I volunteered, they showed me how to fall off the plane should it crash, so that we wouldn’t get burned. After we took off and got to Muong Phan, we met with a small black plane from the Kong Le’s side. [Cargo planes from the USSR were readily available at this time to Kong Le to bring supplies from North Vietnam]. I asked him [the Lao pilot] what it [the other plane] was doing. Also dropping leaflets, he said!  He told me (I was sitting in the back manning the machine gun) not to fire unless we were fired at.  He said, “Just ignore it [the black plane] and keep dropping leaflets”.  So, that’s what I did and nothing happened. But when we got nearer to Xieng Khouang town, we saw many more and bigger planes in the sky. We dropped leaflets to Tham Ling [Monkey Cave], to Kiao Kacham [on the way to Luang Prabang], and to Phu Chia before we came back to land [at Naxan]. We were very lucky, because we learned that two American planes had been shot down in the Plain of Jars that day. 

The second time, I was asked to go and drop pay to Hmong soldiers in the Nong Het area, and we also had five bags of rice in a bigger plane, the kind of plane that crashed at Pa Dong. It was piloted by a black American person. They gave me 200,000 kip. They used two bars of steel attached to a plastic bag and a small parachute. When we got there, we made a large turn [circle] and saw lots of Kong Le’s soldiers on the ground. They were actually Vietnamese. They seemed to be on every mountain top. I radioed our men [on the ground] and said, “Where are you? What is your position?” They said, “Oh, we are down on the flat area where there is a school.” Everywhere else, there were enemy soldiers. I said to them “Oh, there are enemy soldiers everywhere! It looks like you will be attacked very soon.”  So I dropped the pay with the small parachute.  After I saw that they came to collect the parcel, I then dropped the bags of rice. I dropped three bags first. On our second pass to drop the last two bags, we were fired at. We were fired at! I didn’t know any English words! I only knew a few French words. So I told the pilot [in French] “anamite feu!” [Fire from the Vietnamese!]. The pilot turned the plane so suddenly that I hit my head on its canopy.  We went so fast that we suddenly came to Pak Kha. But the pilot turned back. Maybe he wanted to go and have another look. When we went back there, there was fighting on the ground. Dust was swirling everywhere. Then we saw our soldiers running in all directions, some in one column,  towards Pak Kha.

​

GL: Who was their commander?

Major [later Colonel] Soua Yang [who later resettled and died in France after 1975]. This was a battalion of Hmong soldiers originally stationed in Nong Het, but now they were on the move, trying to join up with Vang Pao. They were trying to get to Tham Ling, but they didn’t quite get there yet. They only arrived at the Khmu tasseng area, and were trying to catch up to Naxan.

​

GL: Did many of them die?

No, because the enemy only fired big guns at them. That’s why there was all that dust. Most of them arrived at Pak Kha. We came back [to Naxan], and the next day another plane came.

​

GL: These planes, where did they come from? Savannakhet or Vientiane?

I have no idea. They just arrived.

​

GL: Did a plane come each day? Did it come just to service Vang Pao?

Yes, each day a plane came, different size, not the same one all the time.

​

GL: Did anybody else go in the plane?

Well, they tried to find other people, but they couldn’t find many willing to go, so most of the time I went. One time Vang Pao told Faydang (but this Faydang is Faydang Thao) to go, and Vang Pao gave him his own coat. But Faydang was shaking with fear, so Vang Pao just threw him on the ground, and I had to go again. And then on that day our plane hit a Lao woman on the airstrip, and she died.

​

GL: Can you tell us more how this accident happened?

People were not allowed on the airstrip, and everybody knew. This Lao woman just started walking toward the southern end of the airstrip to go to a village on the other side. We didn’t see her; we just came upon her suddenly and couldn’t stop. I thought, “This is the end for us. We will die as well.” The plane hit the woman and started climbing. If it couldn’t climb, we would have been dead in the ditch.

​

GL: Who was the pilot that day?

The black American. We just continued and dropped leaflets to major Junh’s soldiers in Pak Kha.

​

GL: Did you turn back to have a look at the dead Lao woman?

No! We just continued on. We had our job to do. We were only told more about her after we came back. And Vang Pao said, “It was good that you didn’t die, and only her.” So thank God for that. The woman’s husband came to ask me why we hit his wife. And I told him to go and read the sign. The sign said that nobody was allowed to cross the airstrip. So if you died, nothing could be done. And anyway, a lot of Lao peasants could not read. If you want to complain, it might not be well-received.

​

GL: What else did you do at Naxan?

After that, more and more planes came and went to do their own work in different directions. Other people now went, so I didn’t have to go so often. Then Vang Pao told me to take Ly Ong, Tou Yia, Faydang [Thao], and Vai [Lee] to go back to Phou Khe [a high mountain overlooking the road between Xieng Khouang and the Plain of Jars] to be with Lue Vang and “radioed me information on enemy movements and gave a report to me of how many Kong Le vehicles passed through on the way to us here”, he said. So we walked back and when we got to Bor Aung, where the road split in two, we heard Kong Le’s soldiers attacking Naxan [with artillery guns]. Vang Pao’s people scattered. [Was Naxan attacked or did VP abandon it for a better location?]

​

GL: Why did Vang Pao always lose to Kong Le?

Because the Lao didn’t help the Hmong. It was mostly just the Hmong receiving the brunt of things. So after  they abandoned Naxan, they went to Muong Cha. My boss, the chief of the police, Major Mun, decided not to go with Vang Pao, but to go straight to Vientiane, because he was originally from Vientiane. He took with him about 200 of his police officers. Vang Pao could not stop him, but Thit Boun Thong [the deputy police chief] stayed on with Vang Pao, because he was a Xieng Khouang man. When Major Mun and his men got to Na Phu, the Hmong from Pha Lavae, who sided with the Pathet Lao, ambushed them and killed them. They arrested them and shot them, including their families. At least 180 people died, only two escaped. The attackers are Pathet Lao Hmong. I knew this, because when I met up with Mrs. Mun in Vientiane a few years later, she told me and cried a lot. [NLL was very close to this couple].  If he had joined Vang Pao, he might have survived. The two who escaped were Major Mun’s nephews, who were just 13, 14 years old, and who were only like carriers for their uncle. When the Hmong arrested them, they let them go because they were only young men and were not actual police. There were many sergeants and four or five lieutenants. They all died. Many of the police officers who were in Xieng Khouang with us actually came from Vientiane, most of the superior officers. So the [Xieng Khouang] provincial police force ceased to exist, and I then went in to join the military again. So when we got to Phu Khe [as ordered by VP], I put the men that came with me in the hands of Lue Vang.

​

GL: Who is Lue Vang?

Oh, he was a captain in the Lao army stationed in that area with his troops. He had barracks there. For some reason Kong Le didn’t come to attack him. When we arrived there, I came and got you and the whole family [from your hiding place in Khang Hong]. We first went back to Na Mone, and we just slowly, slowly moved along to make our way to Pa Dong. [GL: Pa Dong had become Vang Pao’s headquarters by this time. It took about 2-3 months for my family to arrive there because we were staying in the jungle or in Hmong villages (in Na Mone and in Pha Lay) to see if Vang Pao would re-take Xieng Khouang town so we could return home, but this did not happen.  It was after we got to Pa Dong that I first developed my terror of parachutes. I and my younger brother Ying were grazing our horse on the bank of a small river when a big cargo plane like a C-130 – they came at all hours of the day – suddenly appeared and dropped bags and boxes from the sky suspended on parachutes.  This was the first time we witnessed this so closely.  From where we were, all the parachutes looked as if they were falling fast straight down on us – we had heard of people being killed this way.  Forgetting our horse, we started running up and down the river bank to avoid being crushed, even when the parachutes fell some distance away..  By the time, the plane finished its job, we were both could hardly walk.  We just fell and lay down on the riverbank, exhausted!].

​

GL: What happened to you after we got to Pa Dong from Phu Khe?

I went back to work with the military people at Pa Dong.

​

GL: Why did Vang Pao abandon Pa Dong (about a week after we arrived there)?

I was not one of those who said we should abandon Pa Dong. I said we should stay. Kong Le could never actually reach it, but often sent up artillery fire. Well, the enemy fired a lot of 105 and 107 guns at us. And rumours were ripe that Kong Le had the place surrounded.

​

GL: Were you outnumbered? Were the enemy soldiers actually there?

No, not many enemy soldiers were seen on the ground, but Kong Le kept firing these big guns at us non-stop [from the Plain of Jars]. We built good bunkers and suffered very few casualties.

​

GL: Why did you all run away from there then?

By that time, Major Soua Yang was at Pa Dong with his soldiers. They were stationed on top of some place called Ban Sue. And he just abandoned his post without even seeing any enemy soldiers. I was at the headquarters with Colonel Chansom and we were given orders to abandon at all costs. There were five or six other Lao army officers there with us. They all ran away, even Chansom, so I decided to go as well. I told the Hmong who stayed on to be careful, and to look out for mines. “Don’t step on them, so you can survive and return to your wives and children”, I said to them. So I came away with some other Hmong soldiers and when we got over the hill, one of them stepped on a mine that was laid there by Lee Cha and his soldiers [part of Gen. Vang Pao’s army]. It didn’t kill anybody, but one piece of shrapnel hit Pao Vang [a member of the escape group] on the head, and he became unconscious. There were 10 of us, so we all carried him up the steep mountainside. But after a while, he became too heavy for us.  Someone said, “We should just leave him on the side of the trail.”  But I said, “No we must take him with us no matter what, because he is a relative of Vang Pao. Vang Pao would not like it if he found out.” But the others refused. So when we came to Pha Hai, Vang Pao came to us in a helicopter. We told him, and he screamed at us and insisted we went back to get the wounded man. So, we had to go all the way back, nearly reaching Pa Dong. And that’s how we knew that the enemy didn’t come to there at all: there were no enemy soldiers anywhere. We were just told to abandon post because of unrelenting fires from the Kong Le heavy guns.   About ten days later they went back to the area, and established a military post there again, just a little one. VP then established his new and bigger headquarters in Pha Khao.

​

GL: And what did you do during that time?

I used to be in Battalion Number 21 [in the Lao Royal Army], based in Pha Khao.  But in 1963, I was transferred to Battalion 24, and was sent to Pak Kha. I was for two years with Colonel Neng Chu Thao who was the commander of Battalion 21. I asked to be transferred to Battalion 24, because in the two, three years I was under him, I never received a single pay. I went to ask him, “Why? What did you do with my pay?” And he said “I only received one month. I don’t know what happened to the rest.”

​

GL: Did you not know that my mother actually got some of your pay to feed us, her children? Who signed it over to her?

Oh, your brother-in-law [Vu Thao] signed for some, and Lee Ong [a close acquaintance] for others.

​

GL: So when you went to Pak Kha, you didn’t receive any pay? How did you survive?

Well, I did some trading to make money.  I was selling fabrics that I originally got from Vientiane.

​

GL: And that’s how you married a new wife at that time?

Yes.

​

GL: What did you do at Pak Kha?

I was in charge of the Second Bureau.

​

GL: What did the Second Bureau do?

Gathering news and intelligence. I was responsible for handing out news for the Battalion and also getting information for them. Most of the soldiers were new recruits from the local area and didn’t know much about war or the army.  They didn’t seem to know much about enemy movements. So when the enemy came and fired at them, I had to report to them on enemy movements.

​

GL: Who are these enemies? Kong Le soldiers or Vietnamese soldiers?

By this time,  mostly Vietnamese. 

​

GL: What year was that?

1964. Our barracks was on top of a rocky mountain near the Pak Kha village. One time, the Vietnamese came at us, and we sent four soldiers with four MAT-49s [a French rapid-fire gun that fires 30 rounds] to ambush them at a very narrow pass. When the Vietnamese got there, they were talking among themselves, saying “oum ba, oum ba"  [Vietnamese for “to kill”].  But it happened that there were only four Vietnamese, too.  We thought there would be many more to follow. They didn’t see the four Hmong soldiers down there, so they were looking up at the barracks and aiming up there. The four Hmong soldiers just fired at them and cut them down. Other soldiers then ran to the Hmong village at Pak Kha to see if there were more Vietnamese there.  They saw a group of Pathet Lao Hmong who came with the Vietnamese. The soldiers we sent numbered 15 and they had a machine gun with them. But the Pathet Lao Hmong were exhausted when they arrived at the village, and were thirsty, so they were looking for water to drink. They were just putting down their backpacks in a Hmong house, in tasseng Xai Chue’s house; and they were all crowding around a bucket of water, so our soldiers just mowed them down. When we abandoned our post at Pak Kha Noi [Small Pak Kha] we booby-trapped four or five land mines [that jump up to your waist before they explode]. Another group of Pathet Lao Hmong came, a whole company. Some of these Pathet Lao Hmong discovered these mines, but they said, “Let’s go into the bunkers and then we’ll pull the trigger and see how they explode.” But these mines didn’t send shrapnel out, they send them down, and killed six of them, including two of their leaders. So they stopped playing with these bombs and just went away. These Pathet Lao Hmong came from Tham Thao, a two days’ walk from Pak Kha.

​

GL: Can you tell us something about the assassination of the Hmong commander  Ly Tong Chao (Naolu) by two of his soldiers in Pak Kha? What’s the story there?

This is how it went. Tong Chao was the battalion commander, Battalion 24, and I was working for him. Tong Chao was young, very quick-tempered. About a month after he arrived there, he asked his relatives to come, including Jua Pao, Tua Feng, Va Sao, and Va Kay. They all came and stayed with us. He was a major. He was an officer with full training from the Lao military academy, not one of Vag Pao’s CIA instant soldiers [although one of his sisters was married to Vang Pao]. I couldn’t argue with him, either. When he brought those relatives of his over, he didn’t tell me. He put Va Kay in charge of a company that used to be under Her Cha and Her Doua. He put Va Sao in charge of Company Number Two. Then he sent the soldiers to war, keeping his relatives behind [“the commanders” safely at headquarters]. And he sent them [the soldiers] to a village called Pha Khao, and to a Lao village called Sanai. Some of the soldiers came to him [Tong Chao] and said, “You have given the company command to your relatives, and they should be the ones that go to war with these soldiers.” But he refused to listen. He told Her Cha and Her Doua to go. And Va Sao, who now commanded Company Number 2 didn’t go either, but the soldiers had to go. But the Company made no complaint. Her Tou and Her Doua came to see him with Vang Cha and a soldier called Punh. Punh was Khmu, and he was not guilty of anything. He just happened to come there at that time. They said to him [Tong Chao], “Commander, you have given command to new people, and they should go, not us. Va Kay should go with his soldiers”, Her Cha said. Her Cha just finished saying this when Tong Chao slapped him on the mouth. And he said to them, “You used to be in command. Why can’t you go?” They replied immediately, “You have changed command. You have given command to Va Kay. Va Kay should go. You should tell Va Kay to go.” Tong Chao then said, “You want to talk some more?”   Her Cha’s assistant, who was carrying a pistol, pulled out his gun and shot Tong Chao in the stomach. Maybe they had it all planned before coming. They both rushed outside [Her Cha and his assistant]. They just fired that one shot. Since then, I have felt very disenchanted, even if you are very closely related to a person, because people have no trust, don’t believe in each other. Our barracks were on top of the village, but our office was in a house in the village, and Tong Chao and I worked in there. The village was quite big, and at that very moment, a lot of Hmong women seemed to be walking around. So I grabbed a gun and tried to shoot at these two [killers], but there were people in the way. When you got them in sight, some women seemed to just come in between, so I couldn’t shoot, and they escaped.

​

GL: These two people, did they also live in the village?

Yes.

​

GL: Were they Green Hmong?

Yes, [Tong Chao was White Hmong].  I ran to the house at the bottom of the village where they disappeared, and I asked the people there, “Did they come in here?” They said, “No! We didn’t see them!” I had one look inside the bedroom, but I didn’t pull back the curtain. If I had, they [the two men hiding behind the curtain] would have killed me. I just came back and called the whole company to come forward, and I asked each soldier to surrender his gun, because they might come to the headquarters and cause trouble. I soon got 68 guns together and put them away.

​

GL: The ones who killed Tong Chao, were they in full military uniform?

Yes, all dressed up in green.  After I came home from chasing them,  I went to see Tong Chao in his office, and he was dead. I asked the people there, “From one single shot?”  They said, “Yes, it went through his body and through his back.”

​

GL: What about his relatives who were the cause of all this trouble?

They were all there, but they couldn’t do anything. They were just shaking with fear. So I asked them to take his body to the airstrip [to be returned to his family]. We then immediately called for a plane to come and get him to give him a funeral at Long Cheng. His body was accompanied by his youngest wife, who is a cousin of your mother. After his body was taken away, I didn’t want to stay on at Pak Kha anymore. I wanted to come home, too, because I was feeling very depressed and scared.

​

GL: Why?

I didn’t have any close relatives there. Anybody could do anything to me, and nobody would care. So Nhia Dang Kue, who had also been to Long Cheng with Tong Chao before, said to me, “If you went back to Long Cheng, then we are finished here in Pak Kha. We will be split into different factions. So it would be better if you stayed, and to see where those other two have escaped to.” I thought about it, and I radioed Ly Tou Pao [Vang Pao’s chief of staff and Tong Chao’s older brother]. I told him, “Tong Chao’s money is in a box here. He has 200,000 kip there. If you agree, I will use this money as a reward for the men who killed him,” because they had run away to their relatives near Phonsavan by that time. [Phak Kha was near the Vietnamese border]. “If you don’t agree, I will just send you the money and everything is finished.”  Tou Pao said, “Yes, do it. Take it to Naikong Sia Chue and ask him to announce the reward.” So I took the money to him, and we radioed the announcement all around. Then, I managed to talk to them [the killers] on the two-way radio and I told them “a person’s life only costs 30,000 [kip]. So if you come back and can get this 200,000 and you use that to pay for Tong Chao’s life, you would be spared.”  They were naive. Six days later they came back and resumed their normal lives as if nothing had happened. They just led a normal life for two months with other  soldiers.  We did not want to scare them to run away again, and were told not to do anything to them.

​

GL: Were you there still all that time?

Yes, I was there.  As an ex-police officer, I was trying to get them arrested. After two months, General Khamkhong [from Paksane, training HQ for Military Region 2] came with four small planes to get Her Tou, Her Chai, Punh and Her Doua. Khamkhong came and said to them, “I am Vang Pao’s superior, and I don’t want you to fall into Vang Pao’s hands. I will take you with me to protect you.” The planes then carried them away. When they got to Paksane, they were surrounded by soldiers with guns in hand, who just tied them up. They were told to surrender their guns and were put outside for the mosquitoes to bite them all night long. They were tied up under a house in the open. The next day they were told to get into a plane going to Long Cheng. As soon as he got down from the plane, some members of Tong Chao’s family bashed Va Tou to death. They trampled on him, all his bones broken.

​

GL: Nobody stopped them?

Vang Pao only said, “He had committed a crime, so it doesn’t matter that they killed him.” Va Tou, the person they bashed to death, was the one that did the shooting. So the remaining two, Her Cha and Punh,  were imprisoned in a covered dug-out hole near the cliff at Long Cheng airport. At first they were given food in the hole. They gave them food for about a month, then left them to their own devices. So they ate the parachute that was used as a mosquito net for them, bit by bit. Very soon, they were starving and just had the bones on their bodies. Then they died inside the hole. That’s the end of that story.

​

GL: Where did you go after that? Did you come back to Long Cheng?

Yes, I did. I didn’t want to stay on in Pak Kha anymore.

​

GL: And then did you go to live in Sam Thong? What were you doing in Sam Thong?

Oh, I was nearing the end of my service, so most people like me were put to work in Sam Thong doing odd jobs and office work. I was told to apply for retirement, and they would pay me half my salary: 8,000 kip a month. After about two years, I got my retirement approved, and I got out [c. 1968]. After Sam Thong was overrun by enemy soldiers, we went to Muong Pheng. Then,  we went to live in Phak Khe, [near Long Cheng] and I went to live in the bamboo village for about four, five years, just farming. Yeah, I was just a farmer then, growing rice, growing corn. In 1975, when the war stopped and the Americans went back home, everybody was running in different directions, leaving Phak Khe empty. And Colonel Jua Va Lee [the only colonel in the Royal Lao Army who was a real colonel] told me to come up to the road from the village with my bags and he would take me to Vientiane to escape to Thailand with the other Hmong people. No one Lee should stay behind, he said.

​

GL:  At that time, Touby kept saying that no one should leave Laos. Why did you want to leave?

I will tell you. When Jua Va arrived, his car was too full for us to get on, so we could not leave with him. We decided to stay. And we went to listen to Kham Kho talk  –

GL: Who is Kham Ko?

A colonel from the Pathet Lao army who was working in the area after VP left for Thailand. Anyway, we were then called to go to Phak Khe, the settlement joining Long Cheng and Ban Son, so we could listen to Kham Kho and Touby. They were going to come and give speech there, urging people not to leave Laos.   Well, everybody was leaving, but there were still a lot of people who did not leave. So, we all went to listen to the speeches.

​

GL: Did Dr Yang Dao [a Hmong leader and member of the Lao National Reconciliation Commission at the time] come, too?

No, he was not there. He had not come yet. Anyway, I said to Uncle Touby that he should not come and talk to the Hmong and if he kept coming, something bad might happen to him. I already heard that some people were going to kill Phagna (another name used for Touby, his Lao title meaning Sir or Lord).

​

GL: Who would want to kill him?

The Lo clan people (on the Chao Fa side). So I asked that he should never return there, because if he came again the Chao Fa might really carry out their threat.

​

GL: Were there many Chao Fa around already at that time (May-August 1975)?

Yes, many had rounds of ammunition all hanging around their waist and walking around openly to display them. They were in Pha Khe, and some used to work with VP.  These were not the Lao people on the Pathet Lao/Faydang side. Touby said “That’s what you really think? You may be right but we shouldn’t be afraid”. I said to him “No, it’s real, no bluffing. This time your life is spared, but maybe not next time, so don’t come anymore. Just one or two you came. Who would be afraid of you?”

​

GL: Did they come by car?

No, they came by plane [there was a small airstrip at Phak Khe]. After Touby and his small party had left, two of the sons of Thaotou (Yang, the PL Hmong military chief) came. One of them was General Paseut (the Hmong commander of the famous Pathet Lao “Kong Pachay” battalion). He came with some of his relatives. They stayed for two nights. On the second night, the Chao Fa Hmong lay bombs next to the house where they stayed and killed them. One bomb was laid on the northern side of the house, the other on the eastern side. The people inside the house were about to have dinner when both bombs went off and many died. Paseut died there, and they (the Pathet Lao) were not happy. They took his body to the airstrip to be taken back home. But they also wanted people to go and have a look at him. So, many of us went, and some even cried when they saw the bodies.

​

GL: How many were killed by the bombs?

12 people, all Pathet Lao Hmong military officers and soldiers. After the bodies were flown back to Vientiane, the Chao Fa were not happy with us, but we were just civilians forced to watch.

​

GL: Why?

Two reasons: one was that we went to see the bodies of dead PL Hmong. The second reason was that we went to listen to Touby. So we were very edgy about the situation, and decided to escape. It was rice harvest time, so we told the local officials that we wanted to go to the fields and harvest our rice. We had a horse and used it to transport some of our family possessions. My family and four other families then went to Pha Meng (Pham Meeb).

​

GL: Where is Pha Meng?

Near Pha Hoei, a few miles to the West from Pha Khe. When we arrived, the people there would not let us move on. We know the villagers there and they said it would be safer for us to stay with them. These were Chao Fa followers. We told them we would like to go on further and take our families to stay at Pha Leng (Pham Leem) first, then we would return to help them fight against the Pathet Lao (PL) at Pha Meng. So we crossed the Nam Ngum river and asked some in-law relatives to row us on some rafts across the river. We went to Pha Leng, near Pongtha (Poos Thas) just west of Long Cheng towards Vang Vieng (as the crow flies). We stayed there for one rice season. We helped our in-law relatives to harvest rice and were able to get a lot of rice, so we stayed on. After a while Ga Ge (Nkaj Zeb), Sia Tu (Txhiaj Tub) and Sai Heu (Xaiv Hawj) joined the Chao Fa and started fighting against the new Lao government. So they came to get me, and we went to stay with them at Pha Phai (Pham Phais). We had many skirmishes with the PL soldiers who came from Na Sou on their way to Nam Long (Naj Loom) along the dirt road there. Anyway, we often sustained casualties, but there was no hospital or medicine. The wounds became infected with puss. We used leaves from a plant called “Rawm” to mash and put on the wounds. We tried this, and the wound became healed.

​

GL: The Chao Fa, they still had guns and ammunition at that time?

Yes, they had what they were given from the old days under Vang Pao.  Pathet Lao soldiers attacked the Hmong wherever the Hmong showed up or could be found. One day, the Hmong - including the sons of both the first and second wives of Sia Tu (Txhiaj Tub) -  went to attack the Lao at Na Sou. The Lao all fled, leaving behind a blacksmith forge. Near its nozzle, the Lao had hidden 15 bars of silver money under a pile of charcoal. The money was seen by a young boy who told Vaj, one of Sia Tou’s sons, but the latter took all of them and did not share with the boy. They had a dispute over the money, and Vaj was judged to be in the wrong. So the money was divided between the two of them. Sia Tou and his sons became unhappy and moved back all the way to Phu Bia, to be with other Chao Fa people. That was the beginning of the scattering of the Chao Fa in our area. After Sia Tou and his sons had left, another Hmong of the Lee clan became the resistance leader for us. When he planned to marry a very young Hmong girl, 10 year old,  I said to him “stop, do not marry one so young”.

​

GL: How old was he: 30, 40?

Oh! More than that. Anyway, he would not listen to me. He told me not to put my nose in his business. He liked the girl and he had already made up his mind to marry her. So I thought “well, maybe it is better to leave things alone”. After 6 days of marriage, the girl refused to stay with him.

​

GL: But he was a Chao Fa leader?

Yes. I told them that if the girl was not willing, they should divorce. So she divorced him. That hurt his pride and he took his family to Phu Bia as well. So there were no Chao Fa left in Pha Phay. He joined about 200 others on their way back to Phu Bia. When they got to Jua Khi (Broken Mountain), Lao soldiers fired mortar at them and killed 5-6 people. After that, we decided to leave for Phu Bia, too, but we were with another group and followed a different route. We went through Nam Yenh and onto Phu Faimai where we stayed for 2 or 3 years.

​

GL: Lao soldiers did not come and harass you there?

Yes. The people there were mostly of the Lee clan. The Lao and Vietnamese troops came to attack us 2-3 times, but we stayed put. Once, they decided to attack from the East and managed to rout the Hmong living at Tia Nhu Qu (Wild Ox Plain). Then, the Pathet Lao just called us together and we surrendered.

GL: How did they call you?

They sent messengers to every settlement. They distributed leaflets and gave us talks.

GL: What was in the leaflets?

They said that if we surrendered, they would not kill us and there would be no punishment. Everyone would just be allowed to go and make a living anywhere within the law. Just so long as we agreed to be law-abiding citizens. So we gave ourselves up to the Lao authorities. Lots of us Hmong. There must be more than 100 families. One person in front carried a white flag on our way to surrender.

GL: Was that a surrender flag?

Yes, a Hmong flag with strip of red and green material on either side. So we gave them the flag and surrendered and were taken to live in Tia Nhu Qu (Wild Ox Plain).  The authorities sent many soldiers to supervise the area.

GL: Was it Lao or Vietnamese soldiers?

Mostly Vietnamese.  Many, many of them.  The Lao authorities brought a lot of rice for the soldiers and for us. They had two granaries of rice in our area, but they only gave each family enough rice to last one day and one night,  not more. So we stayed there. After a few months, they asked us to move to Thong Ha (Five Plains). Uncle No Pao’s son - I don’t remember his name now - he was the Tasseng (canton chief) for us. Neng Yia, that’s his name. He was told to come and get us to go and stay in his village. He sponsored all the Lee families to go to his village.

GL: What about people from other clans?

Other clan leaders accepted them. So we went to live at Thong Ha.

GL: Where is Thong Ha?

Upstream of the Nam Mo river between Pha Khe and Muong Cha. It was very good for rice growing, and Vang Pao built 50 houses for the Hmong to settle there during his time. It was good for cattle grazing as well. From there, Fay Yia and Tong Yer came to get us to go and stay with them at Pha Ngonh.

GL: How many families?

4-5 families. Uncle Song Yer, Nyia Koua, Uncle Xai Shua and Uncle Jia Va, all closely related families. So we went to live in Pha Ngonh, and this happened. Nao Yee, the Tasseng at Pha Ngonh, was one of our nephews, and he asked me to help him resolve a number of community disputes because I used to be a Tasseng. We came to know each other well.  After a few months, he obtained written permission from the Chao Muong (district governor) for me to take 20 people to go and visit Na Yao, a Hmong settlement in the lowlands near the Mekong River [for possible resettlement]. There were about 4-5 families with my own involved. When we got to Tha Lat, we paid for taxis to take us to Muong Phuang. The fare was still cheap then, about 1500 kips per family. When we got to a Hmong village called Nam Pong, we asked if we could spend the night there. The Lao officials agreed and we stayed at Nam Pong. Once there, Blia Neng (the head of one of the families coming with us) said we should not go to Na Yao, but should go to Dong Jai (Roob Ncaib, a big mountain range south of Luang Prabang). It took us two days on foot to get there. We grew crops and lived at Dong Jai for four years.  It was while we were there that you came to Thailand in 1985 to work with Gen. Vang Pao and you contacted me on their radio phone through one of the Neo Hom local contacts in Dong Jai.  I remembered we cried and cried, and could hardly speak.  It was the first time in a very long time that we as father and son talked to each other, heard each other’s voice. 

GL:  Yes, it was a very emotional moment.  It was not just us who cried, but many members of the radio phone team in Ban Vinai refugee camp also cried with us. I was visiting there at the time. Anyway, I want to ask you when was the first time after 1975 that you managed to make contact with me in Australia?

This was when I was living in Pha Ngonh. I went to seek information on your address from Xa Yuachao  [Xab Ntsuab Txos] and his brothers Pa Ying and Chong Teng in K52 Village. For some reasons, they had your address in Australia, so I wrote to you and you were able to send me money.

​ GL:  Yes, they had my address because I knew them and wrote to them to ask if they could find you for me.  I wanted to help find ways for you to escape to Thailand so you could come to live in Australia with me.  After you found my address, did you come to Vientiane regularly?

Yes, about once every two months to send letters to you and your brothers (who had gone to resettle in Australia since 1976). Anyway, after 4 years at Dong Jai, we got permission to move to K52.  Only my own family this time.  After we got to K52, we bought rice and other necessities, trying to live a normal life and not to attract any suspicion from local officials.

GL: From K52, you then made an attempt to escape to Thailand?

Yes, but it was unsuccessful and we ended up in prison, instead.  When you visited Thailand in 1978, you left one of your photos with your mother’s cousin, Pa Xi Yang. He contacted a Lao man while in the refugee camp in Thailand to search for me to get my family and me to escape to Thailand. He was paid with the money that you left with your Uncle Pa Xi. This Lao man came to K52 with our photo. He eventually found us living there, and he said he had already arranged with Lao officials to let us escape. Another Hmong family also wanted to come with us. We were taken in a small truck by two Lao police officers upstream along the Mekong river. They left us near a Lao village called Ban On just across the (Mekong) river from Thailand. The Lao man left us in a clearing, and the truck returned to Vientiane. He said he would come back to work on his field in the late afternoon, and would bring his boat to get us across the Mekong to Thailand. But he never came back. We learned that he got arrested by the local Lao officials, and he told them that we were hiding in the forest nearby. At dawn the next day, three Lao men and two women came to call us to the village. We were taken to the house of the village chief, and to this day I have been so unhappy with the Lao people there. We were very thirsty, and we begged for water to drink, but they gave us water contaminated with little water bugs.  We were made to wait a whole day, and in the evening some village militia came to take us to the Chao Muong or district governor of Kao Liao (north of Vientiane city). The Chao Muong interrogated us for our story. We told them that a Lao came to entice us to escape to Thailand, so they brought the Lao man to us (they already took him there ahead of us), and asked if it was this man. We said yes. They detained us at Kao Liao for two days in the local detention centre, then sent us on to a prison at Sikhay in Vientiane city. We stayed at Sikhay for 3-4 days, then were transferred to the big prison at That Dam where we remained for a month. After that, they sent us to a prison in Muong Kao near Phon Haung in the countryside [north of Vientiane city].

​

GL: Why did they imprison you? What was your crime?

They never said. At Muong Kao, we were not really like in a prison. We were under guards but they made us weave baskets and bamboo rice containers, make knives and other tools, depending on what each person wanted to do or knew what to make. There were many, many young men under detention there. Altogether, there must have been 3,000 - 4,000 people. In some of the buildings, there was hardly anything to lie down on at night. People were put there for all kinds of crimes and reasons. But they were not very strict with older people like myself.

GL: Did they feed you well?

Yes, they gave us enough rice, but there was nothing to go with it. So I bought meat with the money you sent me. Those without relatives in other countries to help them, did not have much to eat, so we shared some food with them if we had anything left over. The younger people were detained in big buildings, but the women and older men were left to wander in and out of the detention centre at will. We could even go outside to the market or the local villages, so long as we returned to the centre at night. We were kept there for two months, then they gave us a written letter saying that we could go anywhere to make a new life. That’s why we decided to go to Na Yao. 

GL: After your imprisonment, you went to live in Na Yao?

I was able to get a travel permit from the Lao police at the prison, so we did not have trouble getting past police check points along the way. They just countersigned on the permit and let us go.  After we arrived at Na Yao, we settled there and were looking for rice fields to clear. Other Hmong we knew were already settled there. We joined them and grew one season of crop, rice and corn. The area was covered in virgin forests and very good for cultivation. But after a year, we decided to escape to Thailand. That had been the plan all along.  There were 300 of us, and we paid 1500 kips to the local Hmong police officer so he would not interfere with our plan. He was very good. He even came with us to show the way to Thailand. We walked through the jungle for hours, and arrived at Phu Chong Kong from where we crossed the Mekong into Ban Vinai refugee camp. That was in 1986.

​

GL: This time was easier and all 300 of you arrived safely?

Yes, all were safe. We had to pay some Lao guides to come with us but there were no Hmong from the refugee camp to show us the way.

GL: You were accepted into Ban Vinai?

Yes, they still accepted refugees at that time. We stayed there for 6 months. After the UN finished processing us and gave us official documents, we were taken to Chiang Kham refugee camp in Pha Yao province, northern Thailand.

​

GL: How long were you in Chiang Kham camp before you came to Australia?

About 6 months only. After we were accepted to Australia, they took us to Phanat Nikhom camp, southeast of Bangkok. We were there for another two months.

​

GL: What did they do with you and other refugees at Phanat Nikhom camp?

They did not do much. They just finished all the health checks, taught English to the younger people, and processed our travel documents. It was a famous place for “naked health check” where they asked you to take off your clothes and inspected your genitals.  The Hmong were really turned off by this kind of very personal health inspection.

GL: When did you arrive in Australia?

We got here in August 1988.

GL: So what do you think about all these life experiences?

This is what I think. I think that because you were my oldest son and you were good with your studies, you got a very high education in Australia, so the government allowed you to live here. This has allowed us to come and live in this nice country. In the old country, we only had enough to eat, not very rich, not very poor. Our old life was not like the life of today in this new country. So, when I could join you and your brothers in Australia, my life really changed for the better.

GL: So you think this life is better than the life back in Laos?

Yes. This new life is not like the old life at all. Now we have good food to eat, and nice clothes to wear. As a father, I am very happy that we have you here, and you helped to bring us to this new and peaceful life. Without you, we would still be suffering like the people back in Laos.

GL: What do you think about the war in the old country and the leaders there? Do you think the struggle for power caused all that suffering for the people?

Yes. I remember after you came back for vacation one year [1969] from Australia, you told me that it would be futile to continue with the war, because we would never win. I did not know any better then so I thought you must be weird to think like that. I even scolded you at that time. Later after we lost the war, I realised how right you were, that we should never have got ourselves involved with the French or the Americans in the war in Laos. We did not win, just like you said, after they left and abandoned us. I did not only think about the Vang Pao era, but also the time I was working with the French. War made everyone suffer. You might be fine at home, but when you had to go to face your enemy, you suffer in all sorts of way.

​

GL: Do you have any last words for young Hmong in the future or for us children?

I think whatever we do, we need to love each other, to show respect; younger brother respecting his older brother, and vice versa. Older brothers see parents like the sky (lub Ntuj or God), younger brothers see older siblings like parents. This would make us better people and make us love each other more. Older ones should listen to younger ones, and younger ones listen to older ones. Do not quarrel, do not fight and argue. Just forgive wrong doings and live in peace with each other. There is a Hmong saying that “a thick forest is hard to clear, a large group of brothers is difficult to win in a dispute”.  Do not cause conflicts to other people, love each other and help each other.